How is it that KS Religion and Spellcraft spontaneously grant a character KS Planes? All the skills are very clearly defined. There is NO mechanic in the game for Skill A + Skill B = Skill C. You may certainly argue a synergy bonus, say +2 or +4 from having so many ranks in Religion... but do they even do synergy anymore?
What is particularly irksome is how stingy we've been with knowledge of creatures in the past. "You got this number, you asked this question, that's it."
Arguing that a particular creature is on a Summon list is a more interesting and less irritating tact, but a slippery slope. If you follow that logic, every cleric or summoner in the game should know everything about all those monsters. So you get to summon a Xizzlick... how does this justify knowing their stats down to cock size (or lack thereof)? That seems hideously broken.
I would rule that if you CAN summon it (based on level restrictions) then you can know. Still seems a bit broken but that's compromise for you.
To be honest I do not recall the exact circumstances of the situation. I recall that it had something to do with your summon spell and the BBEG knowing something that would have been tactically smart on her part. I agree that she did not have Knowledge:Planes but I do not recall much beyond that you summoned outsiders.
ReplyDeleteI believe that I made a reasonable judgement call at the time.
Do you have an arguement? Certainly. Do I deserve to be berated at the table during the game? No I do not. I really do not appreciate it. The bottom line is that no one died and the BBEG did not get any major tactical advantage. You need to remember that there is one of me and sometimes 7 of you. As a group you already stress the limits of the scenarios. The opposition need to make the best choices within the limits of their character and the story. I may make mistakes from time to time but I expect that I am fair while playing and try to provide balance for the sake of the players and the story.
Here are some additional thoughts once I had some more time to think upon it.
ReplyDeleteI believe that the argument was that the BBEG should not been aware of the aura of magic circle against evil which would prevent her from using a mind affecting spell or spell-like ability on them. I justified that she would know. I may have given the wrong explanation why but she still would have known. As an aura, this effect is always on and can be felt by evil creatures. An evil creature would have to make an extra effort to affect another creature so protected. Also she was in the area of effect immediately upon their summoning.
I also feel that it is valid that a creature with a high spellcraft and a spell on their spell list, even if it is not known, would have some knowledge about the creatures that can be summoned using a Summon Monster spell otherwise what is the point of knowing what spell was cast. As a GM, I do not expect that the player knows all the stats for the monsters and thus allow them to look up the entries in the Bestiary. If we follow the logic about not knowing about the monsters, the PCs would also need to have the appropriate knowledge skills to effectively direct their summoned minions. I think that this knowledge crosses into the areas of both skills. You are just getting at it differently. Just like using Diplomacy and Knowledge: Local to find out information about a local person, place or thing.
Lastly, the GM has some latitude for making judgment calls. He can allow the substitution of skills for other appropriate skills that a character may have but the DC target must remain the same. This is primarily a rule to allow players to get information that they require for advancing the story or possibly completing a faction mission but I can see it extending to NPCs on occasion. Again, I am one person and the players are many. You have a more focused list of options to consider and have more time to determine your actions. Since may combats are the whole group against one BBEG, I need to make sure that the single action that they get is effective. A wasted action without very good reason such very clever action on the PCs’ part should not occur. All that does is lessen the experience and challenge of the scenario.
Sorry I berated you. While I am a dick, I really do try to not be a dick to you while youre running. I appreciate that you run a lot, you run well, and it means I dont have to run so much.
ReplyDeleteI missed the part where she spellcrafted my summoning spell. That brings a whole raft of questions to mind:
Does spellcraft apply to spell-like abilities?
Does it apply to spellcraft abilities used while invisible? I don't remember if I was invisible at the time, but for future reference...
What if Im invisible and casting a spell that doesnt negate invis? Spellcraft penalty?
What's BBEG?
Magic Circle From **** can be felt? Because it was a radius effect? Would someone have an inkling that the personal version was in effect?
I just get frustrated sometimes. It feels like you guys do not trust me. I am not the type that is out to screw the players. I know that I will almost always lose. It is not my job to win but it is my job to provide the best challenge and tell a good story.
ReplyDeleteI do not recall if you were invisible or not. I think that you may not have been but not sure that it matters. I would suspect that spell-like abilities work like spells (except that they have no component or focus requirements). Maybe they should have a different DC to determine but I do not believe that there is anything in the rules that covers that ground. Since the are treated as spells I would expect that they can be identified as spells. Certain spells and spell-like abilities are easy to identify. i.e fireball. Not sure how to handle invisible casting of a spell-like ability which has no obvious effect. Likely it would be a surprise and a judgement call as to awareness.
BBEG = Big Bad Evil Guy (Something I picked up on the forums. Thought that was common usage.)
As I understand it, Magic Circle vs. X has a radius and has a noticable, negative impact on those it protects against. i.e. Keeps out summoned creatures, makes it harder to attack, etc.
So it's only Magic Circle that is noticable? Not the personal version? You can see what Im getting at: all it would take is a swing and a near miss for anyone to realize their opponent had a buff up.
ReplyDeleteBased upon the description of Protection from X and Magic Circle Against X, I would say it would be true for both. The spells "creates a
ReplyDeletemagical barrier around the subject at a distance of 1 foot". The Magic Circle verson does the same as the personal spell but extends that protection to 10 feet. It does not say that the barrier is invisible and it must be preceivable at least to summoned creatures as they are repelled by the barrier. It is a judgement call but I think it is fair to say that the aura is visible.