I was recently pondering the value of having different denominations of treasure. Does the game really need CP, SP, GP and PP? Money to the CP only really matters at low levels. Once a character is equiped with mundane stuff, everything else is saving up for the high ticket items which are measured in GP.
On top of coins there are gems, jewelry and objects de art. Is it worth providing these as treasure when most of the time the players just sell everything and split the cash? I can think of some notable exceptions where a player has taken an item are part of their split like the "I fight for glory" belt buckle, the dress that Vencenzio kept to give to Ameiko or when something can be used as a spell component (100GP peals and diamond dust). Is it worth the bother or is it just more bookkeeping that slows the game?
Lastly, magic items seem to have become lack-luster. It is surprising to me how often items get put on the sell it list because no one wants them or because there is a huge GP tag associated with the item. I can understand if no one can use an item (too big, too small, class item, everyone has one, etc.) but it seems at times that folks are holding out for better loot that may never come. It seems that certain items are almost staples that the RonCo wizards should be mass producing (stat enhancing items, rings of protection, amulets of natural armor, etc.) because every character wants them.
I was surprised last week at how cool everyone thought the fish armor was. It was an interesting detail that seemed to catch the imagination.
I agree for the most part, we do just break it down to gp value. I've started to round also, no more .47, for example.
ReplyDeleteSometimes something does catch the eye, fish motief armor, ie.
I don't know if you remember Jennifred had designs in most the magic items she commishioned. Candy cane shaped rod of metamagic feat, smiley faced amulet of natural armor, unicorn shaped mood-ring of +1 protection, hello kitty handy haversack.
There was a ring of animal friendship in the saturday game. It was worth 10,800gp. For something the druids could have memorized, but never did. It was stupidly high priced for what it is. No one would ever buy one.. A wand might be more cost effective.
My .02$
As far as monetary treasure goes, it's ridiculous to think that someone is lugging around thousands of metal coins, even if they do have a bag of holding. When we got hit with the gold curse on Sunday, I crossed off 2 grand not because Red Fang had a sack with 2000 gold pieces in it, but because I hadnt SPECIFIED how his wealth was carried.
ReplyDeleteI think the different denominations are more for flavor than anything else. Or to have arguments about whether or not Dempster will carry all that copper.
You still have to have it though. If you think we're jaded now, imagine how blase we'd be if every treasure pile we came across was a box with a gp value attached.
In regard to magic items, the system is borked. You would think that notable things like a Staff of Wizardry or Vorpal Sword or ANYTHING with a gp value over 20k never even existed for as often as they appear in a printed adventure. Or is that just a factor of level? I know you have some material from Paizo for lvl 15+ but I dont recall ever going thru anything that high.
I dont know why it should surprise you that a lot of items get sold. That's just a simple min/max. Take off your ScreenMonkey glasses and you'll agree.
Take for example the Bloodflame Ring. A 1d6 damage shield and immunity to blood drain sounds pretty cool... until you realize that it comes with a disad (vulnerable to rust attacks) and you could "trade it in" for an item that works ALL THE TIME (stat bonus, saving throw bonus, etc). Also, on a second look, the abilities arent all that hot (no pun intended). I may get to do a d6 damage every time Im hit in melee but I guarantee that will be a fraction of the damage I took to make it happen. And blood drain... has it ever happened to the Sunday crew? I dont remember. And if the attack wasnt notable, then the magic item that defends against it isnt going to be nearly as sexy. You can be that if Red Fang didnt worship a fire god we would have sold it.
...and that's why they still do treasure like they do. If you spew out enough minor doodads and gewgaws sooner or later SOMEONE is going to twig on it in ways you never expected (seafaring minotaurs, anyone?).
I have not done an extensive study but the adventures do seem to scale the treasure. Without going into specifics, I am reading an adventure for 15-17th level right now. There is a pretty cool item worth 35,000 GP that is very common throughout the adventure (I think almost any character would want one). There are several 40,000+ GP items. There is a weapon worth around 100,000 GP, an item worth 180,000 GP and another worth 198,000 GP. There are also several minor artifacts which have no GP value (being priceless and all).
ReplyDeleteWell the question is: does it bother you?
ReplyDeleteI think you have a Screenmonkey issue here. You guys have sold shit-tons of magic weapons and gewgaws in my games and you never batted an eye.
I do not think it is just a "Screenmonkey issue". I am not saying it is only an issue in my games. I am not really saying that it is an issue per se. I am only throwing out a topic for further thought.
ReplyDeleteI get selling stuff that characters cannot use or that there are too many of (+1 longswords, +1 ring of protection, etc.). Selling items is a game of diminishing returns. You lose half the value of the item right off the top. If an item can be used by a character it should be.
Part of the problem may be the concept of a pick list.
If an item CAN be used by a character it SHOULD be?? So Jon's fighter should wear a Headband of +2 Int instead of selling it for 2k and putting that towards something that makes him a better fighter?
ReplyDeleteIt occurs to me that maybe they put the magic items in INTENDING for them to be sold. We have NEVER found as much coinage in a chest as we have obtained from selling magic items.
I suppose we could institute a No Skipping rule for the pick list, but that clashes with the Shawn Rule. Not to mention it makes the problem you see even worse, since the fighter that's forced to pick from a big pile of wizard treasure is just gonna pick the most expensive thing and sell it.
We could use a Who Wants It/Roll method, where you would roll off for those players that want the same item. This is horribly unfair to poor rollers like Darren, and it doesnt solve your problem either.
Really though, I never saw this as a problem to begin with. The game has come a long, long way from the AD&D days where every minor item was supposed to be a rare and precious thing (but never was) and you were NEVER supposed to have a "magic shop." Back in the 80s you had to go on a quest to find a wizard higher than 10th level. These days you might find a 10th level wizard sucking cock on the wharf just to buy his spell components, wearing a poster-board sign proclaiming WILL CRAFT ITEMS 4 FOOD. OK... maybe not that extreme but come on, you cant swing a dead cat in ANY city outside a dead magic zone and not hit SOME kind of arcane caster. They're just common as dirt... so why wouldnt magic items be the same?
Not what I meant. If someone in the party has a use for an item (using your +2 Headband of Intellect as and example) it should not be squandered just because there are not good picks for a particular character. I guess I am coming down on the side of Who can use it/most need method of dividing treasure. Frankly I am not going to tell the players how to do it. It is really up to them.
ReplyDeleteI agree that magic items are much more common in the current game. The mechanics for creating them have been clarified and streamlined. PCs have a real possibility of actually making them.
Remember the rules for recharging an item? The current mechanic is much more simple. Staves can receive a new charge once per day. Rods no longe have abilities that use charages. Wands cannot be recharged. You just buy/make a new one.
Well then how about a hybrid treasure assignment, where you use a pick list only to resolve contested items. For example:
ReplyDeleteRed Fang, Paraiah, La-qeesha, and Lady Smoke get ready to divvy up treasure consisting of:
+4 greatsword
Ring of Spell Storing
+2 sling
phylactery of faithfulness
ring of wizardry
Cloak of resistance +1
Say the pick order is:
1. LaQueesha
2. Red Fang
3. Lady Smoke
4. Paraiah
We call out for the greatsword; who wants it. LaQueesha and Paraiah both chime in. If Paraiah chooses to challenge that AND LaQueesha still takes it then she drops to the bottom of the pick order, bumping everyone up. So LaQueesha takes the greatsword and the pick order goes:
1. Red Fang
2. Lady Smoke
3. Paraiah
4. LaQueesha
Next up, the Ring of Spell Storing. Red Fang and Lady Smoke want it. Red Fang chooses not to challenge for it. Lady Smoke gets the ring and the PICK ORDER STAYS THE SAME.
Next up, +2 Sling. Red Fang is the only one that wants it. He gets it. Pick order doesnt change
Next, phylactery of faithfulness. Red Fang and Lady Smoke want it. Lady Smoke decides not to challenge. Red Fang gets it and pick order stays the same.
Next, Ring of Wizardry. Only Lady Smoke wants it. She gets it and pick order stays.
Next up, Cloak of Resistance. Everyone has a magic cloak so nobody wants it. Sold for party gold.
Note that Red Fang and Lady Smoke got 2 items, LaQueesha got 1, and Paraiah got the shaft. Sometimes, that's just gonna happen. Raid the wizard's tower=get wizard treasure and fighters whine. Defeat Captain Wargorge and his Orc Legion=get fighter treasure and wizards whine.
Also with this method, players will be more likely to take things like the Bloodflame Ring or even a Ring of Animal Friendship. Shawn Rule still in effect! DONT take Ring of Animal Friendship just to sell!
BTW the above method applies only to non-consumables. Scrolls, wands, potions, etc, I've been assigning after players pick the stuff they want.
ReplyDelete